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:::::::: Hello, what you're suggesting makes sense, however as I've been attempting to explain that is not what the Coppermind has been setup for nor what it should be used for. I think we might be going in a circle at this point and I'm not sure if it's useful or productive for us to continue. The wiki isn't for compiling speculation, I'm sorry, this will have to be done elsewhere. Cheers [[User:LadyLameness|LadyLameness]] ([[User talk:LadyLameness|talk]]) 04:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
== Vessel's World ==
Hey LadyLameness,
Apologies a few things cropped up on my end thus delaying me from editing the site for quite a while. I hope you don't mind my delay in getting back to you.
I am just posting on your talk page to inquire about a series of edits you had made to the individual vessel pages where the world section of the character info box was switched from 'Yolen' to whatever world they currently inhabit. May I enquire as to what the reason for this edit was? I checked the style guides and there is no special rule there mentioned about vessel's only being marked for the world they are invested in and other pages of planet hoppers only reference their world of origin rather than the current world they inhabit. (See [[Vasher]], [[Vivenna]], [[Nightblood]], [[Hoid]], [[Nazh]], etc) As such it would make more sense to me for the vessel's to similarly be down for their world of origin for consistency sake. If there is a reason for your own edit though that I'm missing I'm interested to hear it.
--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 12:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi Debarra, welcome back. Information about the infoboxes can normally be found on the individual infobox template pages in [[:Category:Infoboxes]], though I have realized the Character infobox doesn't actually detail why it was meant to be used only when - this is likely because when the infoboxes were first set up the number of people working on the wiki didn't lead to differing interpretations or there was more discussion of how to define them at the time they were being used. I wasn't around during this time but I imagine the only information we had to work with was the immediate location of traveling characters hence why it reflects their current location. In terms of the information you wanted to add, I took a look at the other parameter's available and I believe you are looking for is birthplace. [[User:LadyLameness|LadyLameness]] ([[User talk:LadyLameness|talk]]) 17:17, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
: So in order to make sure that I am reading your statement correctly, you are saying that you do not recall there ever being any discussion as to some sort of exemption for Vessel's infoboxes? In that case it would seem suitable then to update them to reflect their world of origin, thus bringing them inline with the various articles I referenced above.
:--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 16:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
::Thank you for checking, you have misunderstood my message. When the infoboxes were created (back in ~2010 when the Coppermind first started) it was with the understanding that 'world' parameter was being used in one specific way - this hasn't changed. I specifically was not on the staff 12 years ago so I am speaking about it second hand, which I think where the confusion has come from?
::The purpose of the world parameter is what I said in my revert message - to reflect the book relevant location of a character. If you want to suggest a change then please do so and we can consider it - we are currently discussing a number of infobox parameters at the moment because the last couple of book releases have shown that people are having widely different interpretations of what they should be and it is leading to diversions and confusion. I can certainly take any suggestions to the staff group and we can consider. If you have any any details on how such an idea would be implemented that would also be useful - feasibility is one of the aspects that often prevents us approving a change as it consistently is not considered before ideas are put forward. [[User:LadyLameness|LadyLameness]] ([[User talk:LadyLameness|talk]]) 20:00, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
::: I changed Tanavast's page to check an idea, marking Birthplace as Yolen and World as Roshar, to see if others agree this is how it should be done with the Vessels. [[User:Firesong|Firesong]] ([[User talk:Firesong|talk]]) 23:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: Looks good Firesong! If you happen to have the reference on hand it would be good to add that as well. [[User:LadyLameness|LadyLameness]] ([[User talk:LadyLameness|talk]]) 22:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: Using the birthplace as a tag just leads into the same issue however, why would the Vessels be referring to an entire planet rather than a specific location. [[Kaladin]] for instance has a known home village and thus has it down as his birthplace but Roshar as his world, see also [[Szeth]]. Characters without a concrete birthplace, besides the entire planet, simply have nothing labelled, see [[Dalinar]] and [[Shallan]]. Why should the Vessel pages be any different?--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 23:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
::: Again I must say that your interpterion of the infobox is confusing to me and seems significantly less practical than simply making the world tag apply to their world of origin. As I have pointed out previously every other usage of the world box points towards the individuals world of origin and you are yet to give a reason as to why the Vessel pages should be any different. The usage of the box already seems quite clear and has a commonly understood consensus among users, why are you not willing to apply this to the Vessel pages as well?
::: Furthermore the alternative your suggesting, from what I can gather about it, seems to make little sense. Are you suggesting that rather than simply change the Vessel pages to meet the standard as set out in virtually every other page that we instead remodel the site to match them? Even in that case the infobox raises more questions than answers. Why is Bavadin down for Taldain but not First or Scadrial despite them manifesting equally in all three worlds? (And as far as we know an Avatar is present on Taldain but no sign of Bavadin herself, the only world we see herself interact with is Scadrial.) Why is Rayse down for Roshar when we know he visited four separate worlds at least (Sel, Threnody, Ashyn, Braize) and based on how investiture works his influence would still be on those worlds? Why is Tanavast down for Roshar when we know that their influence extends, at minimum, to Ashyn and Braize as well, as all three worlds are in the same system? Why is Ati down for Scadrial when we know his investiture is on Nalthis since it helped create Nightblood in a significant way? Multiple word of Brandon's has stated that location isn't even a meaningful term for Shards and Vessels since they are omnipresent, we even see this in how Harmony mentions that he talks to other Shards and how Autonomy just appears in different places. So why are the Shards not down for every single world then?
::: Ignoring the Vessel's how else do you propose the other pages work? What world is Hoid currently on, Roshar or Scadrial? What about Nazh and Khriss? Last time we saw Khriss she was on Scadrial but we know she went off world since. What about characters whom we know are currently resigning in Shadesmar, and thus have no associated world of current residence?
::: These problems literally only exist if we follow this new suggestion, which seems only to be made simply so the Vessel pages aren't down for their world of origin like every other page. It makes little sense to try and change the entire site wide policy rather than update the 10 or so offending pages. You yourself have even mentioned that the only reason they weren't stating Yolen was because their world of origin was not known until recently, it seems like they always would have simply said Yolen if that was known from the beginning.--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 23:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
:::: Debarra, you attribute much more "policy" than truly exists for the world parameter. We do need to figure more concrete guidance for what precisely these parameters mean (along with Featured In) exactly indicate now that time things will have immense planetary crossover. As Lady Lameness said, these infoboxes do not state what precisely to do here. This is complex. And yes, we do need to figure out guidance for worldhoppers as well. This is a tricky question that we need to resolve, especially as characters can be in different worlds at different times. It is clear you feel strongly, and it is noted. But you still ascribe much more policy than things being ad-hoc over the last decade implies. Stay tuned for future guidance, but let's not adjust this for now. Featured In and world are a mess to resolve, and will only get more complicated as things go on. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 05:14, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Okay, I think this needs to be taken down a notch - I have tried to answer your questions and if you have more then let's work through them, but I was really not expecting to come back to this and be yelled at, nor am I interested in continuing to discuss it if you're unable to do so in a civil manner.
As I mentioned before there are multiple parameters that we are currently having to re-evaluate because it's become clearer over the past few releases that they are more ambiguous than intended - this is in large part why things aren't 100% uniform across pages. However, that doesn't change the fact that the initial purpose of the 'world' parameter was intended to reflect the in book locations on the Shard pages. This is not a new suggestion, it's the original idea. That doesn't mean that it's perfect, nor does it mean that it is currently - or always will be - the best way to display information - like I mentioned before, there are other infobox parameters we are having to re-evaluate because they don't work as well as originally intended, there's no reason this one can't be re-looked at as well. The books have clearly moved on from easter egg appearances and there's going to be a lot more than just these things that need to be adjusted on the wiki to compensate moving away from relatively self-contained worlds. But there are a lot of pages that will be affected by structural changes, particularly ones made to infoboxes (and mandatory parameters specifically) and worldhoppers are going to be specifically difficult to deal with. Otherwise wouldn't it be easier to change the six pages you've brought up as being different, instead of the changing ten pages that are currently in line with previous decisions? You have good points, but there is more to a change like this than you're implying.
There's obviously a lot you've brought up that I could respond to but honestly after the tone in your last message, I'm not willing to spend more of my Tuesday evening digging into them if I don't think you're actually going to be a team player. I can help create a change proposal if you want - we can set up a separate talk or user sub-page and go through more of the nitty gritty and work out potential implementation and any run off issues that might occur. There may also be another solution that comes up (eg. is there an alternative title that is clearer or a different parameter that would work better? Do we need a 'world' parameter? etc). But I do need to know you are willing to come to the table, collaborate, and work with me, not against me. [[User:LadyLameness|LadyLameness]] ([[User talk:LadyLameness|talk]]) 06:42, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
:: I am again confused by your sudden tonal shift here, at no point have I 'yelled' or resorted to personal attacks. I have acted in a civil manner throughout and the fact that you are jumping to such accusations and not presume good faith despite the [https://coppermind.net/wiki/Help:Guidelines#Etiquette sites own rules] is worrying. (I am also going to link to the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith other wiki's page] about the matter considering the brevity of the sites own rule in that regard.) If me simply disagreeing with you is somehow seen as 'incivil' and makes you resort to such rhetoric of me not being a 'team player' then I don't know what to say, the entire point of talk pages is to discuss matters such as this and if your reading anger or maliciousness into someone's reply then that is your own doing. How exactly do you expect others to say they disagree with you if your response will be to accuse them of acting in bad faith towards you personally?
:: Throughout this conversation I have been trying to reach a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus consensus] and despite asking on two separate occasions am still no closer to understanding what exactly your objection is. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#In_talk_pages No reasoning or argument] has been offered beyond saying that we should remodel the entire infobox system, with no clear explanation offered as to why this is needed beyond avoiding editing the pages in question and suggesting that other 'changes' are needed but never specifying what. Only in this response have you offered a possible reason, that being that world for Shards are meant to reflect their 'world,' but offer no reference to a previous discussion about this or [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus_can_change why a new consensus can not be achieved] to simply update the vessels to their world of origin, like how the rest of the site appears.--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 16:30, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
::: Debarra, your question has been answered, the Staff is re-evaluating the parameters because they agree with your point of it being an issue at the moment. Site-wide changes like this do not happen instantly. You simply need to wait patiently for the staff to decide how we, as editors, are going to handle this issue. --[[User:Firesong|Firesong]] ([[User talk:Firesong|talk]]) 17:59, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
::: There's obviously some tension in this conversation right now. I'd like to step in and hopefully help ease that.
::: To be clear, the Keepers are aware of problems, that have been noted here, that arise from this parameter. Staff ARE in active discussion about how to use this parameter (or whether it's even worth keeping). Community input is valuable so if there are opinions about this matter (that have not yet been expressed), we'd love to hear them (via Discord would be preferred, otherwise either on the forums or a talk page/user page). However, it's not ultimately worth debating the usage of this parameter, when we are actively discussing how it might be better implemented.
::: To confirm: the policy of the "world" parameter in Character infoboxes has historically served the purpose LadyLameness previously described: to note the primary world in which the character is involved. It's concerned with narrative importance. By that policy, the Vessels should list the world of whatever series they are most involved in. The "birthplace" parameter suggested earlier does seem to accomplish the original goal of having Yolen listed as the birthplace for each Vessel. I don't see any issues with the varied level of detail on birthplaces--something similar is done with the Location infoboxes--and like with those infoboxes, the information should be as specific as possible. (e.g., Kaladin having Hearthstone listed implies he is also born in Sadeas Princedom, Alethkar, Roshar, etc.)
::: I'm happy to talk about this further if there's still confusion. --[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 04:00, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
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