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Difference between revisions of "User talk:Debarra"
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: Also while I have you thanks for all the edits around the site!--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 00:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
::That's how categories work in MediaWiki - the pages will only show up in the categories they're directly placed in, so users are required to navigate the category trees to find the pages they're interested in. On Wikipedia, articles are only ever in the bottom-most relevant category, and usually don't get duplicated to any parent categories, which is where my feeling that we shouldn't add the Lumaran culture category comes from. If things are done differently here that's fine by me too. And thanks! Enjoying it so far, even if I am mostly just tinkering with side characters so far. [[User:Samwalton9|Samwalton9]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 00:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
== Tress Cup Claims ==
Hey Debarra, small request. You (and some others) have a couple of things claimed on the "Tress Cup" spreadsheet, and we're asking people to do just one at a time. We're getting down to a point where there's only a handful left, so I want to make sure things are open unless someone is more or less actively working on it. Would you mind removing your name from all but one at a time? I'm going to go back through later tonight and reassign things myself if needed, but I wanted to give you a chance to pick whichever one you'd like to work on first (or else go ahead and add any work that you ''have'' done to the pages).--[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 18:32, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
: I was unaware that we were only meant to do one at a time, when putting my name down practically everyone had multiple names down. The three used were small in comparison to the other claims made at that time.
: In relation to the cup however feel free to remove all my claims as upon further reflection I do not have any interest in the cup nor am a fan of the atmosphere it seems to have created. As such I was planning to remove my claims on it anyway, if you want to do that on my behalf I have no issues with that.--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 19:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
::No worries. I should have communicated it better. The main announcement explains it, but I've now realized I mis-linked it on the Coppermind home page! Sorry about that. And sure, it's no problem to remove your name.--[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 22:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
== Hoid ==
Hi Debarra. I wanted to reach out because while I appreciate the work on the early portion of Hoid’s history, I see a mentioned plan for a full rewrite of his article. I am the person responsible for most of the content on that page, and am actively updating it, as I did with new Sunlit Man info. I am curious what sort of rewriting you had in mind? I think the history and ability sections are in pretty good shape, content-wise at least. As Hoid is an important article, I’ve briefly protected the page (after checking with the Keeper Team) until we’re on the same page about what’s to be done.
Thanks!
—[[User:Windrunner|Windrunner]] ([[User talk:Windrunner|talk]]) 19:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
:The suggested edits have been worked upon for quite a long time now, most probably the better part of a year by this stage, and are all clearly visible on the draft page on my profile. This is most definetly known to the Keepers as they have also on and off edited the draft page themselves so this is not new knowledge.
:As well as this may I ask on what grounds you've decided to lock the page? From reading this is seems you are implying that solely yourself is allowed to edit the page in any substantial way, which reads as quite a tyrannical stance to take and one that is completely against the philosophy of letting others contribute to the site. If pages are going to be at random locked if anyone tries to improve them then why would anyone bother helping the site? --[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 19:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
::Hi Debarra, I'm sorry that we started things out on this foot. I want to start by taking the temperature down. Nothing that has happened can be reasonably described as tyranny. We let people do what they want to do on their user pages and generally take little interest. When you start making major edits to the most-trafficked page on the Coppermind, it is going to get noticed and flagged. I didn't roll back your edits, or start taking them apart, or anything like that. I talked to the Keeper team, and then I pressed pause on the page, so that we can talk. I stated up front that I'd written a lot of the Hoid article because I wanted to be straightforward with you, not because no one but me can edit it.
::Now to follow up on the actual topic at hand, I want to thank you for organizing some of the details in the early parts of Hoid's history in a better way, that's something I'd been meaning to do that I'd never gotten around to, and it's definitely better than it was. The Coppermind staff (not just myself) took a look at some of the edits though, and do think that there are elements where you are making assumptions not born out by the books or WoBs or overstate the confidence we have in that info. This is to be certain a balancing act, some level of assumption is necessary, but we think that you do go beyond that. It's part of what makes writing that section very difficult. I like what you've done here though and while there may be some minor tweaks that reduce the confidence that we state things (as Hoid's pre-White Sand history is pretty spotty) or add any of the info that Firesong has mentioned as being removed, I think that it should stay on the page.
::Additionally, reading through the larger section you suggested to Firesong as indicative of what you'd like to do to the page, I think the level of detail you are providing is excessive for the task at hand. This is currently one of the longest pages on the Coppermind, and when it's all said and done I believe it will probably be one of the longest pages on the wiki after all the books come out. Hoid will be the protagonist to several forthcoming novels. The current history is written to balance level of detail with readability and brevity, and I think that in your revised history you include too much detail. We are not looking to have the Hoid article be rewritten from scratch at this time, particularly the history, personality, or abilities sections. If there are significant details or elements that you feel are missing, we can definitely add some of them.
::If you want to head to the discord server, that is where a lot of our work discussion takes place and is ultimately chatting there works a lot better for our current wiki system than discussion through talk pages. If you'd rather speak to another member of the staff, instead of me, we can make that happen too, but I can honestly tell you that I am not speaking unilaterally here and you will not get a different answer from someone else. Thanks again for your help. --[[User:Windrunner|Windrunner]] ([[User talk:Windrunner|talk]]) 14:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
:: I am also rather concerned about this, as I personally feel the edit has a substantially amount of unsubstantiated assumptions concerning chronology, and removes a substantial amount of content. I am concerned about how much more content will be erased, and how many more theories will be inserted into the text. I also feel it is made far harder to follow as it just turns it into several very long paragraphs which go on a large amount of separate subjects, without proper indentation to separate topics. It is ultimately a communication of less information in more words, due to how many details it erased and did not include. I also feel it is very disrespectful to completely erase the work of others without due discussion with the main editors of the page responsible for the content, as one should have done. It was also not the best to call a complete erasure and replacement of the work of others an update instead of a replacement, and imply you are going to erase ''all'' of their work to replace it with your own. I apologize for my bluntness, I just find this rather upsetting and am also not sure how else to put my criticisms.
:: It is not that no-one is allowed to edit, it is just that this, a series of large edits to the entire main body of an very important page, is a very big edit that should require more discussion. It more-so comes down to the specific context of this situation. And as Windrunner said, it is a brief lock while they discuss it, as large edits are worth discussion. --[[User:Firesong|Firesong]] ([[User talk:Firesong|talk]]) 19:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
::: If you feel there is unwarranted conjecture or theories being added to the page then feel free to edit the page so as to remove it. No content should have been deleted as the original was used as a basis for my version, if some information was somehow lost feel free to edit it back in. The entire point of the site is that you are free to edit in or remove such information without having to ask me. One of the reason why I decided it better to introduce things in a piecemeal fashion was so there would be more time to address and fix such things that other editors disagreed with. As well as this the draft version has been visible for almost a year and has a discussion page there, there has been a very long length of time to notice and share a concern over the idea of editing the Hoid page, a chance that is still there to discuss.
::: As well as this no ones work is being 'erased.' I fail to see the point of being so emotionally charged over a wiki that is designed to be publically edited. It is the basis of every wiki site that work will be substantially changed at some stage, I myself have added many substantial edits to different pages on the site and since then that work has been in turn substantially changed by others, including yourself; either to remove it or add more. I think we can all agree it would be quite frankly absurd for me to be against such edits to my own work and demand users come to me for my approval on any change. It is completely against the spirit of the site.
::: If we need the prior consent of every editor who helped contribute to a page before changing it ourselves, how is the site meant to even function?--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 20:07, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
:::: I agree for the most part, it was you saying you were going to ''replace'' the entire history section that made it warrant more discussion, in my own opinion. Not the individual edit itself. Which isn't that bad on its own, though I feel the fat can be trimmed down a bit. And could use some formatting, as the paragraphs are too long, and yes, I can just add back some info when it gets opened again.
:::: I apologize for my outburst, I did not act appropriately, I simply got stressed. I am genuinely sorry about how I acted. --[[User:Firesong|Firesong]] ([[User talk:Firesong|talk]]) 20:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
::::: No need to apologise, I know you did not mean to come across as rude and you didn't in my opinion. Again feel free to totally change it as you think improves it. It's why I wanted to add stuff in slow bites so things could be further refined.
::::: If you wish to look at the other work feel free to go to my profile and click under /hoid. The only history sections there I consider somewhat presentable (as from my own work to clarify) are from 'Origin' to 'Catacrandre.' (Inclusive) If you want feel free to have a look and leave a note under the discussion page there on what you think needs to be fixed so I can take it into account as I continue to work on it. I would only ask to not edit the draft page directly as I still view massive chunks of it as a work in progress and a lot of it is laid out in an order that I can somewhat follow to remind me where I was.--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 20:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
:::::: I am glad I didn't. I just always worry I do as I am often rather blunt. Especially when stressed or anxious. And don't worry, I won't edit your draft. (Feel free to delete that talk page I made because I forgot how to go to the actual talk page.) --[[User:Firesong|Firesong]] ([[User talk:Firesong|talk]]) 20:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
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