Editing Talk:Steel Inquisitor

==Steel Inquisitor spikes==
How many spikes do the Steel Inquisitors have?  What metal is each spike, where is it located, and what power does it give them?  That question applies to regular Steel Inquisitors from the first Mistborn book, and also to the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan from the book Hero of Ages.

Here's what I've been able to put together myself:  They all have 2 steel spikes through the eyes, 2 steel spikes in the chest, and 4 bronze spikes in the chest.  Through those 8 spikes, they get the 8 basic Allomantic powers.  The regular Steel Inquisitors also have 1 spike to seal them together.  So we're up to 9.  That much seems well established.  But then I'm confused about the rest.

Issue 1.  The Mistborn epilogue (page 637) said that in addition to those 9 spikes, regular Steel Inquisitors had 2 more spikes in the chest, for a total of 11.  What's the deal with them?  Mistborn chapter 36 (pages 592 and 600) implied that regular Steel Inquisitors had healing powers and moved supernaturally quickly.  So maybe those other 2 spikes granted those abilities.  That's supported by the introduction of the Hero of Ages chapter 36 (page 313), which says that the original Steel Inquisitors had a spike that gave them their healing abilities.  If so, then what type of metal were those spikes?  I don't think it says this anywhere in the first trilogy (which is all I've read), but presumably the speed comes from a pewter spike, since speed is a Feruchemical physical power, and pewter spikes steal Feruchemical physical powers.

The introduction of the Hero of Ages chapter 36 (page 313) says the spike that gave them healing abilities was pewter.  That's slightly problematic, as healing comes from gold, and the metal tables say that gold is a temporal or hybrid metal, rather than a physical metal.  This website's article for [[Steel Inquisitor]]s speculates that they could gain healing from a gold spike, since the Hemalurgic metal table in the leather bound version of Hero of Ages says gold spikes steal Feruchemical hybrid powers.  (As opposed to the metals quick reference chart in the paperback version of Hero of Ages, which says atium spikes are the ones that steal Feruchemical temporal powers [note:  I meant to say Allomantic temporal powers here, not Feruchemical].)  The webpage https://wob.coppermind.net/events/294-17th-shard-interview/#e10123 says that when the author was asked about this in 2010, he said that might be a typo, but he wasn't sure.  The webpage https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1729-a-late-breaking-report/ says that the author said in 2012 that pewter spikes really do steal the ability to store health (which Feruchemists store in gold).  He reiterates that pewter spikes only steal physical powers, but he says two groups of Feruchemical powers are both considered physical.  That sort of contradicts the metal tables that describe gold as a temporal or hybrid metal, rather than a physical metal.  The author seems to say this contradiction is because Feruchemy obeys different rules than Allomancy, and there was going to be a table of Feruchemy at the end of the book Alloy of Law which presumably would've clarified this, but it wasn't ready in time for publication.

So that's my theory about those 2 spikes.  But does anyone else have any additional information from the last 8 years or the more recent books?

Issue 2.  Also, Hero of Ages chapter 5 (pages 44-45) says the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan had a pewter spike in the heart, which the other Steel Inquisitors didn't have.  What power did that give him?  That section makes a big deal about his speed.  Is it trying to imply that pewter spike gave him speed?  Because as I mentioned above, Mistborn chapter 36 (page 600) implied that regular Steel Inquisitors already moved supernaturally quickly.  So I don't know why that would be a new revelation.

Issue 3.  Also, if the regular Steel Inquisitors had 11 spikes, and the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan has an extra one, then it seems like he'd have 12.  But that section (Hero of Ages chapter 5, pages 44-45) says he only had 10.  It also seems to say that regular Steel Inquisitors only have 6 spikes in the chest, rather than the 8 spikes they were previously described as having.  So what's the deal with that?

My theory on issues 2 and 3 is that by the time the author got to this part, he'd forgotten what he wrote in the first book.  Or decided to retcon it.  But does anyone else have additional information?

Issue 4.  That section (Hero of Ages chapter 5, pages 44-45) describes the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan as having a steel spike in the shoulders.  Is that another term for the spike in the back that seals the other spikes together?  And if not, what's the deal with it?

- [[User:Ebmid2|Ebmid2]] ([[User talk:Ebmid2|talk]]) 00:56, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

:On issue 1, one problem I think you're running into here is that, even before the Lord Ruler's death, not all Inquisitors had the same number of spikes (see [[wob:8848]]; [[wob:10123]] and [[wob:8037]] also imply this). I wouldn't be surprised if there were some inconsistencies in the spike metals either, but I think the [[:File:Hemalurgy table.jpg|Hemalurgy table]] should be the canonical version of what metals steal what powers and any errors were probably fixed in the leatherbound editions of the Era 1 books. Per [[wob:5971]], the entry for atium on the metals quick reference chart in ''The Hero of Ages'' is a deliberate, in-world error. I think the [[:File:Feruchemical table.jpg|Feruchemical table]] and Hemalurgy table make clear that, while Brandon did consider there to be two physical quadrants in Feruchemy at one point, that is no longer canonical.

:On issue 2, Inquisitors had Allomantic pewter before the Lord Ruler's death, which I think would be enough to give them supernatural speed. Since [[wob:10123]] says they occasionally had trouble finding enough Keepers for Feruchemical gold spikes, I doubt any Inquisitors had Feruchemical steel at this time. Vin says the Inquisitor at Vetitan moved too fast for even duralumin-enhanced Allomantic pewter and per the Hemalurgy table, the pewter spike through his heart would grant a physical Feruchemical power, so I'm pretty sure that new spike was in fact granting Feruchemical steel, allowing that Inquisitor to move even faster than Inquisitors previously had (possibly by Compounding).

:On issue 3, I think this also probably falls under "the number of spikes in each Inquisitor was not always the same."

:On issue 4, yeah, I'd agree that the spike in the shoulders is the one Marsh describes as sealing the other spikes together.

:As far as this Coppermind article goes, the fact that not all Inquisitors had the same number of spikes is already noted at [[Steel Inquisitor#Powers]]. For the metal types used for Inquisitor spikes, the Hemalurgy table and leatherbounds should take precedence over earlier editions of the books; if there's a disagreement between the leatherbounds or between the leatherbounds and the table, I think we'd just try to note that disagreement.

:--[[User:Stargazer|Stargazer]] ([[User talk:Stargazer|talk]]) 02:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

::Hmmm. Unfortunately the chapter 36 epigraph still says that the pewter spike is granting the healing power even in the leatherbound. That is unfortunate and I was under the impression that was fixed given my involvement on the Hemalurgic Table on that. I believe the Hemalurgic Table should have the most up-to-date info on that due the process on that. I can email Isaac and Peter regarding this. The linchpin spike has always been vague as to what it is. I agree with all of Stargazer's other points. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 06:01, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

:::Stargazer's answers to issues 2, 3, and 4 seem reasonable.

:::I just went out and checked the 2019 edition of the books, and it looks like some of these issues have been fixed in the Hero of Ages.  The 2019 version says the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan has 11 spikes, instead of 10 like it says in the old version.  And the 2019 version says regular Steel Inquisitors have 7 spikes through the ribs (including a gold spike), instead of 6 (without a gold spike) like it says in the old version.  And in the 2019 version, the introduction of the Hero of Ages chapter 36 now says their healing powers come from a gold spike, instead of a pewter spike like it says in the old version.  Once we finish this discussion, I'll edit the article to note those changes between versions.

:::But that still doesn't answer the question of what Marsh's spikes were.  Presumably he has 8 for the basic Allomantic powers, plus 1 gold spike for healing, plus the 1 to hold them together.  But what about his 11th spike?  I checked the 2019 version of the first Mistborn book, and it looks like it hasn't changed any of this stuff.  It still says Marsh has 11 spikes.

:::Another change in the 2019 version is that in Hero of Ages chapter 4 [note: I meant to say chapter 5, not 4], when they're inspecting the dead body of the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan, it adds the line "there was no sign of an atium spike, so perhaps this Inquisitor had originally been a Mistborn."  I know some of the Steel Inquisitors (like the one in Mistborn chapter 34) could burn atium.  So maybe Marsh's 11th spike was an atium spike to give him the power of Allomantic atium.

:::Although that new line I just quoted, it seems strange.  Because in the old version of the books, I don't think the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan ever showed any sign of being able to burn atium.  So I don't know what it means by "perhaps this Inquisitor had originally been a Mistborn."  Maybe it burned atium in the 2019 version.  I didn't think to check when I was looking at the book earlier today.

:::Also note that way back in 2010, Chaos2651 here added a note to this website's article on [[Steel Inquisitor]]s which briefly mentions an atium spike.  But I'm not sure what his source was, or what he meant by it.  Is it a spike made from atium, or a spike that gives them the power of Allomantic atium (or both), or a spike that gives them the power of Feruchemical atium?  And which Steel Inquisitors did have it?

:::- [[User:Ebmid2|Ebmid2]] ([[User talk:Ebmid2|talk]]) 01:02, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

::::I'm glad the 2019 versions corrected the pewter matter. Regarding atium, at the time of the Final Empire, they knew atium stole Allomantic Temporal abilities (see HoA Ars Arcanum and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5971 ). Obviously the primary combat ability would be to steal the ability to use Allomantic atium, as the others are irrelevant to an Inquisitor and the Lord Ruler would not waste atium spikes on other trivial things. I don't think every Inquisitor had the atium spike, but I do think it would be highly prioritized for Inquisitors to have, as in the Final Empire days, an Inquisitor would need that ability to combat other Mistborn. By that logic, I would say Marsh's original 11th spike would be atium. I'm sure there would have existing some Inquisitors who maybe didn't have the atium spike, but god, that'd be such a liability. So I imagine almost every Inquisitor has that atium spike, stealing Allomantic atium, unless they were already a Mistborn. For differences between versions, state those in the Trivia section. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 06:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::Alright.  I'm satisfied, then, that Marsh's 11th spike was made from atium, and it gave him the power of allomantic atium.  I don't know if the books ever explicitly say that.  But it was probably implied, by virtue of the fact that some Steel Inquisitors are able to burn atium (as seen in Mistborn chapter 34).  In retrospect, I feel kind of silly for not having thought of that before I started this conversation.  But I got distracted by all these other issues, and the Powers section on this article doesn't include the atium spike in the same list as the other spikes.  So unless anyone objects, I'll add the atium spike to that list, and I'll also update the article for the other things we've discussed here.

:::::The only thing that's really still bothering me is that the 2019 version of Hero of Ages says "perhaps this Inquisitor had originally been a Mistborn" when it's talking about the Steel Inquisitor at Vetitan in chapter 4 [note: I meant to say chapter 5, not 4].  I don't know what would make them think that. - [[User:Ebmid2|Ebmid2]] ([[User talk:Ebmid2|talk]]) 18:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::I imagine the characters are under the impression that Inquisitors would need the ability to burn Allomantic atium, so if they don't find an atium spike, they assume the original person was a Mistborn. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 19:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

:::::::Maybe.  In any case, I found another change.  The old version of the books says the Inquisitor at Vetitan "had the standard spikes" plus a new one.  But the 2019 version said it "had *most of* the standard spikes" plus a new one.  That implies it's missing a standard spike.  Presumably the atium one.  Which means Vin would've considered the atium spike standard.  So when she saw an Inquisitor that didn't have an atium spike, she probably would've wondered why it didn't have it.  I expect the real answer to that question is that Ruin either didn't have atium for a spike, or didn't have a person to spike with it, or didn't want to waste atium on that Inquisitor.  But Vin might've assumed the answer was that particular Inquisitor didn't need an atium spike.  And one reason he wouldn't need one is that he was Mistborn.  And that might explain her statement "perhaps this Inquisitor had originally been a Mistborn". - [[User:Ebmid2|Ebmid2]] ([[User talk:Ebmid2|talk]]) 22:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

::::::::Regardless, at this stage I feel we are beyond what is necessary for this Coppermind article. I believe the matters have been satisfactorily answered sufficiently. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 02:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@@ Line 58: / Line 58: @@
 :::::::Maybe. In any case, I found another change. The old version of the books says the Inquisitor at Vetitan "had the standard spikes" plus a new one. But the 2019 version said it "had *most of* the standard spikes" plus a new one. That implies it's missing a standard spike. Presumably the atium one. Which means Vin would've considered the atium spike standard. So when she saw an Inquisitor that didn't have an atium spike, she probably would've wondered why it didn't have it. I expect the real answer to that question is that Ruin either didn't have atium for a spike, or didn't have a person to spike with it, or didn't want to waste atium on that Inquisitor. But Vin might've assumed the answer was that particular Inquisitor didn't need an atium spike. And one reason he wouldn't need one is that he was Mistborn. And that might explain her statement "perhaps this Inquisitor had originally been a Mistborn". - [[User:Ebmid2|Ebmid2]] ([[User talk:Ebmid2|talk]]) 22:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
-::::::::Regardless, at this stage I feel we are beyond what is necessary for this Coppermind article. I believe the matters have been satisfactorily answered sufficiently. Please include changes in the Trivia section when you add them. Thanks! -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 02:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
+::::::::Regardless, at this stage I feel we are beyond what is necessary for this Coppermind article. I believe the matters have been satisfactorily answered sufficiently. -- [[User:Chaos2651|Chaos2651]] ([[User talk:Chaos2651|talk]]) 02:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
-==Originally Mistborn Steel Inquisitors?==
-So there's mention of a handful of Steel Inquisitors being originally Mistborn, but is there a concrete number, or way to identify them? I presume its the ones stronger than Mistborn, but are any of the named inquisitors included? <small>— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Chickeness]] 17:06, 23 July 2022 (UTC)</small>
-:The only named Inquisitors (see [[:Category: Steel Inquisitors]]) are [[Marsh]] (who was a Seeker) and [[Kar (Scadrial)|Kar]] and [[Bendal]] from book one; I don't recall their past Allomantic abilities ever being described or an exact number of Mistborn Inquisitors ever being mentioned. --[[User:Stargazer|Stargazer]] ([[User talk:Stargazer|talk]]) 18:14, 24 July 2022 (UTC)