Editing Talk:Charlie's father

== Why not duke? ==

The reason for the move makes exceedingly little sense. He routinely is referred to as the duke throughout the novel. In fact I don't think the text every actually gives him the title of 'Charlie's father' once throughout the novel. He is only ever referred to as the duke. Unlike Wayne's mother there is no textual basis for the move.

Even the sites style guide is very clear that duke is the title that should be used here. Throughout the site formal titles are used when given in leu of a first name. See [[Lord Hue]], [[Lord Habren]], [[Lady Farthing]], and the [[High Emperor]]. Why is duke suddenly an exception to sitewide convention?--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 18:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:The majority consensus in the chat was that "duke" is awkward as a page title with other characters who are dukes, and because the story merely uses it as a title rather than capitalized as a name. Naming characters by an important relation is the [[:Category:Unnamed_characters|usual convention for unnamed characters]], so that is the most natural option. We do actually have a whole [[:Category:Titled_characters|"titled characters" category]] for those that you mentioned, but (1) I believe this is a convention we have been shifting away from (There are a lot of characters with no first name and a title who are NOT using this convention.) and most importantly (2) nearly all of them at least have some kind of unique name. We wouldn't title an article for an unnamed character simply "lord" or "lady" unless there were no better options. That is to say, I think [[High Emperor]] is the only exception to our normal conventions.--[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 19:14, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:: What other character's are named duke? To my knowledge there are no others and a simple redirect would resolve the issue regardless. I am also unaware of any other characters who have their relationship to another be their title rather than their given name in the story. As well as this the style guide itself very clearly states the convention is to use title's in this scenario, in fact the style guide from my reading of it makes 0 mention whatsoever about using a character's relationship with another as their title. It seems very clear that convention would be to refer to them as 'duke.' If anything referring to the character as Charlies father would be more confusing to a user since he is consistently referred to as the duke throughout the text. If someone wanted information on the character it would make the most sense to search them under what the story calls them.--[[User:Debarra|Debarra]] ([[User talk:Debarra|talk]]) 19:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:::There is a prominent duke in Elantris who is often referred to as "the duke". (and a few other minor characters who are dukes it seems) Policy reasons aside, that's the main practical argument for this particular decision. Or at least, I assume that was the primary reason. Like I said, this was a public discussion so I can't speak to the reasons for everyone who voiced their opinion. I don't think there's any disagreement that "duke" should redirect to [[Charlie's father]], so this shouldn't cause any confusion or difficulty for people trying to find the article.
:::Regarding the style guide policy, I apologize--I was mistaken, this point is not outdated. Regardless, it does sound like the intent with the policy is to use titles with surnames when a first name is not known. We will need to clarify that, it looks like. We do still think that our typical method of referring to relations for entirely unnamed characters is best. We'll have to add that to the style guide because, as I mentioned, this is standard for characters with no known name. There's not any characters who use a relationship as an article title rather than a given name. The issue here is that the duke doesn't have an in-world name given.--[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 21:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 :::There is a prominent duke in Elantris who is often referred to as "the duke". (and a few other minor characters who are dukes it seems) Policy reasons aside, that's the main practical argument for this particular decision. Or at least, I assume that was the primary reason. Like I said, this was a public discussion so I can't speak to the reasons for everyone who voiced their opinion. I don't think there's any disagreement that "duke" should redirect to [[Charlie's father]], so this shouldn't cause any confusion or difficulty for people trying to find the article.
 :::Regarding the style guide policy, I apologize--I was mistaken, this point is not outdated. Regardless, it does sound like the intent with the policy is to use titles with surnames when a first name is not known. We will need to clarify that, it looks like. We do still think that our typical method of referring to relations for entirely unnamed characters is best. We'll have to add that to the style guide because, as I mentioned, this is standard for characters with no known name. There's not any characters who use a relationship as an article title rather than a given name. The issue here is that the duke doesn't have an in-world name given.--[[User:Jofwu|Jofwu]] ([[User talk:Jofwu|talk]]) 21:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
-== Proposal for move: Duke of Diggen's Point ==
-I feel using the title 'Duke of Diggen's Point' would alleviate most of the concerns in other discussion - it sets the character under his own identity, but still sets him apart from any other duke that already exists or could appear later. Any concerns? --[[User:RadagastWiz|RadagastWiz]] ([[User talk:RadagastWiz|talk]]) 02:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
-: That was also suggested as an option, but also had opposition for being a bit of a mouthful and perhaps a bit presumptuous about his exact title, as well as being less consistent with what's been done for other unnamed characters. --[[User:Stargazer|Stargazer]] ([[User talk:Stargazer|talk]]) 03:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)